Curse

vaxmor · Nov 15, 2007, 05:02 AM // 05:02

another brilliant idea. kill all hydrids. yay. . .actually, hmm. . .lets think about this some more, killing off everyones hybrid != solution.

anonymous · Nov 15, 2007, 05:17 AM // 05:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

I actually wasn't aware of that. So that's two big pet mechanics that are different between PvE and PvP. Question is: Why is this pet corpse thing not applied like those two other mechanics?

The plot thickens...

EDIT: Seeing above post, what is the truth? I've never had a pet in PvP before, so I have no idea.

Unless something changed in the past 2 weeks(I haven't HA'd in about that long) then my post is correct. I didn't see anything in the update notes about it so I'm assuming the mechanic didn't change.

EDIT: Just went to Isle of the Nameless and got my pet killed, my skills did blackout. Go test it yourself if you don't believe me.

viscus · Nov 15, 2007, 05:49 AM // 05:49

pve players.... i dunno where to start.... splitting the game skills to change in pvp areas... well, those whoever thought it would take another team of anet supernerfers to run a split game dont think too hard, its simple programming and i say simple because obviously nerfnet programmers know their stuff, its just unfortunate that they lack foresight. go through any old update list and you will see that there are nearly always more nerfs than buffs, its creating a stagnant environment where the skills that are always overlooked because they seem to be useless in any situation will be drawn upon to create builds that really have no purpose other than to simply function while flagged henchman do the job as you sit back and wait for drops. Light Of Deliverance is a prime example, if your whole party is degening, by the time you cast it they will not really gain life, they will only gain pretty much whatever they lost during the 2 sec cast time, add on top of that extra pressure from melee and AoE.... Monks should never be targeted for skill balance, monk skills are absolutely essential in pve and pvp, and no, n/rt healers are not as good so stop your internal monologue right now. I can see the next nerf list containing infuse to make it heal for about 40% less.... anyway, while typing this i think i suddenly just stopped giving a damn. i for one will not be purchasing gw2 as i believe it will be as poorly maintained as gw1, i think i'll stick with my ps3 and 360 tyvm....

pumpkin pie · Nov 15, 2007, 06:02 AM // 06:02

/not signed

I buy 1 game get to play pve and pvp, split it, i have to buy 2 games. MAJOR MEH. NO!

Skyy High · Nov 15, 2007, 06:06 AM // 06:06

No dammit. No.

Longasc · Nov 15, 2007, 06:09 AM // 06:09

ANet does not charge fees, they try to cater to as much players as possible, basically everyone.

I see little hope for GW2 if they follow the current practice:

99% of balancing done with PvP in mind
99% of new content for PvE

One skillset for two totally different kind of games, add in hero battles and other pvp game modes and things become even more difficult to balance.

GW2 Predictions:

Typical MMO PvE grinder, very easy, so that everyone can do it.
Super-casual PvP for people, very much following the shining example of WoW. ("World Battles")

PvP gets GvG as the holy grail, Heroes' Ascent will be merged into the World Battles.

Basically, a PvE world - where skill buffs and nerfs are dictated by the competitive side of the game again.

ANet still believes in a competitive game, they have already realized that people did not become PvP gamers after they "finished" PvE content, then they added more and more content to it. While they have realized the trend, it still does not seem to have reached their mind that people do not even want to become PvPers.

Faction AB's, Hero Battles - so many tries to make things more accessible for the "casual gamer" they roughly envisioned.

This is my nightmare, a super-easy PvE world where you can grind for titles of various factions forever, no challenge involved, even easier than GW1. + Skill balancing still based on the various PvP modes.

I think the WoW approach favoring the classical PvE world allows for a much easier addition of casual PvP to the game. If they really want a high-class, high-skill PvP game, they would indeed have to separate it totally. This 2 worlds, 1 skillset approach is and will GW only hurt, PvP and PvE players alike.

Vinraith · Nov 15, 2007, 06:54 AM // 06:54

No split. No catering to whiny brats who can't even make a request politely.

tyrant rex · Nov 15, 2007, 07:11 AM // 07:11

its not like nerfs to skills make pve any harded so why spend time trying to sep pve and pvp when you can just focus on balancing pvp

I Angra I · Nov 15, 2007, 07:11 AM // 07:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darmikau

GG, PvPnet.

If only that were true.

Guild Wars is both a PvE and PvP game, with an endgame focus solely on PvP. Originally when the game was made, it was expected that almost all players would shift to PvP eventually.

If you want a game without PvP, the answer is not GW. I am sorry.

DreamRunner · Nov 15, 2007, 07:13 AM // 07:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azza

Why should we ask politely, would you ask someone politely if they took something away from you that you payed for without them asking you first?

Personally i would break a few teeth but all the people i know can`t reach that far down a phone line, so venting anger is the next logical step.

Why are they angry? because its always the same, stuff the PVE`ers lets cater only to the Whiny Brats who PVP. so Whining works, PVP`ers prove it.

So PVE`rs must be thinking by now, if i whine like a PVP`er things will go our way because that works for PVP`ers

PvP whine too much? Yeah please, GWEN anyone?

Avarre · Nov 15, 2007, 07:30 AM // 07:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinger314

Splitting PvE and PvP will kill Guild Wars.

Not splitting PvE and PvP will kill Guild Wars.

Got this right.

Probably the best path would be to move the two closer to each other. The more mobs are structured logically, the way PvP teams are, using skill synergy rather than stat boosts to create difficulty, the more balance in the two functions the same. This would create fewer problems in one when there is a change originating in the other and also encourage players to play in both areas.

The only reason you would split the game is that so PvE didn't have to be balanced. If players don't want things balanced, then they must be enjoying just rolling mobs without any effort using powerful skills. Balance isn't important in PvE, but it does keep things from moving too far away from the idea that skill is the key factor. PvE-only skills and other deviations from PvP are all causes of a failure of this idea.

Oh yeah, while I'm here...

Try to drag this topic into a troll-fest between player bases and you get banned. That is all.

arcanemacabre · Nov 15, 2007, 07:37 AM // 07:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vinraith

Speaking as an exclusively PvE player I haven't the first clue what you're talking about. I really don't. Skill balances prompt me to rethink my builds. I like that. If I could play through the game with the same three builds and never need to change them I'd have stopped playing this game ages ago because it'd be unbelievably dull.

Completely agree with this. However, I also don't see any reason why a split would be a bad idea. They are clearly two different games that are tragically using the same mechanics. Still, this has been discussed to no end in the past, and it always comes down to one fact most everyone agrees with: Anet won't do it.

We'll just have to see what GW2 does.

EDIT:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Probably the best path would be to move the two closer to each other. The more mobs are structured logically, the way PvP teams are, using skill synergy rather than stat boosts to create difficulty, the more balance in the two functions the same. This would create fewer problems in one when there is a change originating in the other and also encourage players to play in both areas.

Except that if it is done this way, each individual battle would take as long as a standard GvG, and then multiply that times every patrol of mobs in a zone. Suddenly PvE goes from being a casual game to an 8-hour-a-day career.

EDIT2: Just want to make it clear; I wouldn't mind an improvement in skillbars and AI among the mobs, I just don't think making every thing you face in PvE near-equivalent to PvP difficulty is a good idea. Some high-end areas featuring this would be nice, though. It still doesn't address most of the problems, especially because skillbars don't change, and people will still find ways to brute force it and take advantage of the AI, but all-in-all, it isn't a terrible idea.

Still won't happen in GW1, though. So, yeah...

Lykan · Nov 15, 2007, 07:40 AM // 07:40

These people who keep asking for big game breaking changes don't seem to realise the game is in its last legs, why would they plow more money into it when GW2 is being made??
Stop asking for stupid things!

Racthoh · Nov 15, 2007, 07:54 AM // 07:54

Hypothetical; they balance the game around PvE: Protective Spirit gets a hit, the AI is programmed to move just out of the range of AoE, and enemies never ball up around a heavily enchanted warrior that holds aggro. If PvE is the focus of balance why wouldn't they remove degenerate gameplay to promote skillful playing?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Savio

Come to think of it, I don't know why I typed that, as I don't know the status of Izzy's account.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/User:...y.27s_Accounts

strcpy · Nov 15, 2007, 08:12 AM // 08:12

I hope not, the PvE only skills are about as far as I can see it going. I rather enjoy the ones we got but they will eventually get stale.

I've yet to find a PvE MMO that doesn't get the exact same type of skill balances, it is a requirement for any game intended to be played long term. Anyone who has played any other MMO for any period of time can tell you favorite builds that have been totally trashed. There are VERY few online games that these changes do not require one to delete and re-roll a character and I know of none that are as simple/easy to change as GW.

I find it *really* amusing all the stories of going to another MMO to escape the grinding and constant skill balances. Of course that is why we see many of the same people quitting never to come back about once a month (many of them going on two years of that). If you don't like the amount GW has in either of them then you aren't going to like *any* MMO - heck even freaking Diablo 1/2 had such balances. Good like finding that game.

You can insert whatever reason you happen to feel is the root cause of GW being (simultaneously) about the easiest to change from balances, one of the least drastic in terms of changes, and one with the loudest community of whiners about balances. My general feeling is that the "no monthly fee" generates a larger percentage of young people who haven't had real life bite them yet and think that if they whine enough and loud enough that the world will still do what their parents do - cave in and do whatever it is they want.

*edit* argh - clicked submit instead of preview.

Vinraith · Nov 15, 2007, 08:14 AM // 08:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

Completely agree with this. However, I also don't see any reason why a split would be a bad idea. They are clearly two different games that are tragically using the same mechanics.

I don't disagree in principle, but in practice I suspect the effect of a PvE/PvP split would be considerably less "skill churn" since PvE "balance" is much less important than PvP balance. This is exactly the result that the "split" crowd is hoping for, as best I can tell. They don't want anything to change. I can't begin to imagine how badly the game would stagnate if they ever got their wish.

Avarre · Nov 15, 2007, 08:24 AM // 08:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

Except that if it is done this way, each individual battle would take as long as a standard GvG, and then multiply that times every patrol of mobs in a zone. Suddenly PvE goes from being a casual game to an 8-hour-a-day career.

Not necessarily. Groups of mobs having secondary skills, builds that work, and mixed professions wouldn't result in such drastic changes. As it is, many areas, such as FoW have balanced groups (Skeleton packs), but for the most part their skills are abyssal.

Making groups that actually used synergy would take the place of things like Enraged, area effects, and immense health and damage boosts already in place - as well as promoting better play rather than one-dimensionally blasting through everything that stands.

This wouldn't make the game longer or even harder, but it would make the two parts of the game fit better together - as well as potentially making it more interesting.

Azza · Nov 15, 2007, 08:31 AM // 08:31

I am Suggesting that Skills are Nerfed to appease the PVP`ers to the detriment of PVE`ers although i cant find my original post, it has probably been deleted because i flamed Area on thier track record of Nerfing stuff and said i won`t buy GW2 because of it or because i flamed PVP`ers who can`t think for themselves and come up with counters so things get nerfed to the detriment of the whole community.

The Original Title of this discussion is "So, will there ever been [I think they mean "be"] an iota of a chance for a PvE/PvP split" and after reading thier idea I take this as meaning seperating the two playing requirements of Skills in PVP vs PVE and i dont think they mean seperating them into two different servers. to me that would be unworkable and unafordable to game that seems to be dying

IE. If Pet Corpses are not exploitable in PVP areas only this would appease the Whiny PVP`ers who dont know to attack or can`t attack the MM and not the Minions and it would keep the PVE`ers happy as well as this nerf would not affect the PVE world.

This way PVE`ers won`t complain about Nerfs that are put in place because of PVP`ers as is currently happening on an all too often occurance.

If this was possible it would have no detrimental affect on PVP`ers who want the nerfs in the first place and would have no affect on PVE`ers, it would be a win win solution. But no the solution is way to easy or its just that Area doesn`t like PVE`ers as it doesn`t bring them big business, Who knows they tell us nothing anyway and ask for no feed back before implementing the Nerfs, we are just mushrooms

arcanemacabre · Nov 15, 2007, 08:50 AM // 08:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vinraith

I don't disagree in principle, but in practice I suspect the effect of a PvE/PvP split would be considerably less "skill churn" since PvE "balance" is much less important than PvP balance. This is exactly the result that the "split" crowd is hoping for, as best I can tell. They don't want anything to change. I can't begin to imagine how badly the game would stagnate if they ever got their wish.

You make a pretty good point, and the more I think about it, the more I realize there isn't much of reason to split the two, in all honesty. I am certainly not in favor of overpowered and abused skills in PvE (see Ursan), though I'm not necessarily against them, either (to each their own). Really, the PvE-only skills fix any real issues I had with the combined aspect, well, except for the fact that I don't like most of the PvE skills, but that's another story.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Not necessarily. Groups of mobs having secondary skills, builds that work, and mixed professions wouldn't result in such drastic changes. As it is, many areas, such as FoW have balanced groups (Skeleton packs), but for the most part their skills are abyssal.

Making groups that actually used synergy would take the place of things like Enraged, area effects, and immense health and damage boosts already in place - as well as promoting better play rather than one-dimensionally blasting through everything that stands.

This wouldn't make the game longer or even harder, but it would make the two parts of the game fit better together - as well as potentially making it more interesting.

Well, that's true, and I did agree that this could be a good thing, if used sparingly and more fitting for the high-end areas. Like you say, this is a great replacement for ridiculous area effects and brute power.

Now, the only real problems I see with this is the amount of time and upkeep something like that would bring. In other words, when skills are nerfed/buffed, PvPers can simply change their build and design new metas. This can happen instantly, or it can take some time, but eventually new metas will be made while the old die off. These monsters would be stuck with aging meta builds that would be eventually less effective, sometimes entirely not effective at all.

For example, let's say before the Bloodsong change to Channeling, you have a spirit-spamming mob that is now much less effective when the change is made, without having any points in Channeling. While this is a more obvious infraction and can be noticed by coders, what about more subtle changes that could make an entire build crap? You know, like Mhenlo and LoD? They were kind enough to spot that for a henchmen many use all the time, but would they really pay much attention to mobs out there with what are supposed to be competition-level skillbars? I doubt it.

There is also the issue with the AI being not-so-good with certain skills and combination of skills. Even if you (coders) were able to copy-paste high profile skillbars, you would also have to likely add tweaks to the AI with instructions on how to use that build. With these builds needing change with every skill balance, that is a lot for even monthly-fee companies to deal with.

It is a great idea, I just don't see it being feasable, unfortunately. I would love for there to be a zone of monsters that randomly choose a team configuration used by say a top 100 guild at the time from a recent observable battle. Talk about true PvP training!

Azza · Nov 15, 2007, 08:52 AM // 08:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamRunner

PvP whine too much? Yeah please, GWEN anyone?

LOL Ohhh yeeaaahhhh and then some, and they are still going at it, i found GWEN easy personally, but onto subject of title of thread at hand, this thread isn`t about an aspect of the game being to hard its a whinge at Area Nerfing Skills to the detrement of PVE`ers and wanting the Skills of PVP vs PVE to be seperated so that they dont affect PVE if its meant to counter an Exploit in PVP